Curio & Relics and Black Powder Firearms, Old School shooting fun! Serial numbered receivers that failed to pass inspection were set aside as rejects if the defect(s) could not be brought up to minimum standards. The technical storage or access is required to create user profiles to send advertising, or to track the user on a website or across several websites for similar marketing purposes. If you choose to do so please Parkerizing found on such parts is clear evidence that the weapon is not all original. All matching even the trigger group. The muzzle gauges 2.5. Because of it's size and weight the M1 carbine became fairly popular with many GI's. The barrel is stamped UNDERWOOD on the top of the barrel behind the front sight. Yellow Birch heartwood tends to be a light reddish brown, with nearly white sapwood. Shopping at Guns.com gives you the backing The LOP measures 13 inches from the front of the trigger to the back of the buttplate. CARBINE / CAL. the first M2 stocks. The 15 round magazine is not available to residents of California or any other state with magazine capacity restrictions. The decision for which receivers with Inlands war effort. The bore and rifling are nice and shiny with just a hint of light pitting near the muzzle. 12/1/21 - This is a very nice example of a Saginaw M1 Carbine issued to the US military between May 1943 - January 1944. The bore is mint. It must not be inferred that if a carbine has a round bolt or an adjustable rear sight, it has been altered. Saginaw Steering Gear Division of General Motors Grand Rapids. Anticipated shortages led to the use of yellow birch. Many were constructed using whatever parts That S/N is a Saginaw Grand Rapids number. WWII "Saginaw" M1 Carbine Converted to a Fully Automatic M2 ConfigurationThis is an example of an original WWII production M1 carbine as produced by the Saginaw Steering Gear Company, that was later converted and registered as a fully automatic M2 type carbine. During WWII the only stocks made with Birch were made by Sprague & Carleton Co. of Keene, NH for IBM (SC-B). Please don't Private Message me for Carbine questions. Others merely fill the holes with glue of some similar substance and paint the area in an attempt to hide these marks. The desirable and hard to find original M1A1 folding stock paratrooper carbines are particularly prone to faking and the above books should be consulted before any purchase of such a carbine is consummated. Carbines that have one of these serial numbers may be an Engineering prototype, a "presentation" carbine, or both. The adjustable rear sight came into use sometime before the T4 barrel band and some relatively late production carbines made by several makers were originally fitted with adjustable rear sights. It is in about Very Good Plus to Fine condition. If these are stamped with bogus, but seemingly proper markings, such stocks could appear to be highly desirable mint original stocks. Some were sequential but many were not. The trigger group is marked SG on the right rear which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 78). This was not a requirement and it's use or absence varied with location and time. final inspection. A very scarce WW2 Saginaw manufacture U.S. M1 Carbine .30 Caliber Semi-Auto rifle. The top front of the receiver is marked U.S. On the other hand, a detailed examination of a carbine is not always possible and the above parts can be looked at without even picking up the carbine from a gun show table, choosing a selection results in a full page refresh. on your local stores shelf, most retailers drop ship it from a warehouse in The markings on the There are some exceptions to this rule as several prime contractors are known to have utilized parts made for other prime contractors. DIV. 94 W. Cochran St., Suite B Made in the Winter of 1943. I have a high wood Rockola on my early IP. Caliber: .30 Carbine. The sling well is marked RSG which was used bySaginaw SG, Irwin-Pedersen, and Saginaw Gear(page 108 109). A circled P in san serif within a 1/2 inch diameter circle stamped in the bottom of the handgrip (above left) was sometimes used as a proof mark at several prime contractor facilities to indicate a completed carbine Newer Post , Spotting a Restored or otherwise non-original M1 Carbine. Inland receivers initially rejected because of an off spec deep hole drilled for the recoil spring and guide, later recovered and altered to use a detachable main spring housing). If the finish was in acceptable condition at the time of the overhaul inspection, the weapon was not normally refinished. Get Guns.com offers and news!! Therefore, a carbine made by any of the other firms will not have barrels made by the same company that produced the receiver. Serial is 1,870,482 with all parts matching, including wooden stock and top of the receiver. It has seen some use but most of the markings are in great shape. Saginaw Steering Gear in nearby Saginaw, MI was already engaged in the preparation for If a carbine appears to have all of the proper vintage, correctly coded parts and doesnt seem to have been refinished, the possibility exists that the weapon has been correctly restored. The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary Black cherry was approved and saw very limited use. Serial numbered receivers transferred were not restricted to a certain block of serial numbers. I have one, 1776xxx. There is fouling and intermittent light erosion in the grooves. Assuming the parts appear to be consistent with the vintage of the carbine, the markings should be closely examined. Need Help?service@guns.comCall (866)582-4867, PO Box 1131 13800 Nicollet Blvd Burnsville, MN 55337 2023Guns.com. The Carbine Collectors Club. It shows light discoloration & spots of soiling on the canvas as well as scrapes on the metal. It appears to read S. Saginaw marked the Grand Rapids factory M1 Carbines SG to differentiate them from the ones produced at the original Saginaw plant. I'll give you $150.00 for it so you can double your return. However, if a carbine has all of the above parts (T4 barrel band, rotary safety, adjustable sight, parkerized bolt, etc.) Oval sling cut, Low Wood exposes slide. Numbers were issued sequentially, beginning where How much is a CMP Garand worth? A M1 GARAND rifle is currently worth an average price of $2,024.47 new and $1,615.82 used . How much is an M1 Garand in 2020? M1C Garand Sniper Model There are 2 separate Saginaw Gear manufacturers. There is minor wear concentrated around the high edges of the receiver. Refinished wood is normally quite easy to spot as are restruck, refreshed or enhanced stock markings. It is only fair that some context of time be added to such comments. Collector references books such as my Complete Guide to the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine and Larry Ruths excellent War Baby books are recommended for anyone wishing to explore the subject in greater depth. Such carbines may be fine collector items, but are not as desirable or valuable as original, unrestored carbines. Is any of this "original" or a product of a couple rebuilds? S&W Walther PPK/s Review: Obsolete or Concealed Carry Gem? / 44. The practice of restoring the overhauled carbines by replacing later and/or non-original parts is a widespread practice among many collectors today. Saginaw SG guns were produced from the remnants of the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Grand The practice of restoring the overhauled carbines by replacing later and/or non-original parts is a widespread practice among many collectors today. For the best experience on our site, be sure to turn on Javascript in your browser. It was normally placed on the front of the handgrip (above right) but sometimes appears on the bottom of the handgrip. On the other hand, as an old-time collector once said, Its not the fakes I spot that bother me, its the ones I dont. It shows light soiling on the canvas as well as scrapes & discoloration on the metal. Ordnance depots outside the continental U.S. and foreign facilities contracted by U.S. These stamps were commercially manufactured for use on the M1 After WWII Birch became much more common. If a receiver was scrapped and not used, its serial number may or may not have been reused. This M1 Carbine is 1 part short of being considered all matching. of 0.5. The thin high wood area was eliminated as it was perceived as a weak point. Legacy Collectibles strives to provide quality investment-grade military collectibles to an appreciative public. Some manufacturers used more than one Overall, this rifle rates in about Very Good Plus condition. For the best experience on our site, be sure to turn on Javascript in your browser. The trigger group is marked IP on the right rear which is a Irwin-Pedersen mark (page 78). It has a receiver stamped SG on the left front side, both were divisions of General Motors though. Location: The People's Glorious Republik of Southern Kalifornistan. see comments at the best online prices at eBay! Through our YouTube channel, we strive to educate and share the stories behind the artifacts we sell. As time goes on more and more carbines are having parts replaced. The band will have 3 spot welds. It is in very good condition with minor scratching and denting of the stock. Most of our products are unique. Walnut, Birch, and Cherry stocks were placed in raw linseed oil for a period of time, Letter prefixes X through XD were initially allocated by Inland for carbines intended for internal use only. To get better and faster responses and opinions. Good luck. Rangemasters are here to answer all your questions about our products or process. Every week we put items for sale starting at $1 ! The stock rates in about Very Good Plus overall condition. SIG Sauer MCX Review: Next-Gen Modern Sporting Rifle? The one and only finish approved for use on stocks & handguards was raw linseed oil. Hi everyone, I acquired a Saginaw M1 carbine from a family member this morning. It is this Post WWII, the Office of the Chief of Ordnance (OCO) assigned replacement numbers to armories, arsenals, and depots If the sight is covering the name, you should be able to make out an 'S' on the left side, and maybe a 'D' or a '.' It is important to remember that the amount of wear on all components, wood and metal, should be consistent. Barrel Date: March, 1943, Action Type:Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. A wide indention in the wood in this area found on a carbine with a narrow barrel band is another definite indication that the stock in question had the later type of barrel band installed at one time. It appears the bridge may have been eliminated on type III stocks Caveat Emptor! The hand guard should also be removed when possible to determine that it is properly coded to match the stock. Stock Configuration & Condition:The two piece hardwood stock has a pistol grip, Type IA barrel band with sling loop, sling well, sling pass through, and metal buttplate. By the way, the company that produced the receiver is deemed the prime contractor. XA through XD was assigned for use by their Engineering Section on carbines built for testing and evaluation by their engineers. The receiver is marked SG under the wood and uses a wide locking tang. Saginaw Carbines made in the Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG . Below is a breakdown of the parts: Barrel: Inland. Only Irwin-Pedersen & Saginaw SG receivers were produced with a tooling hole (page 22 of Craig Rieschs book, U.S. M1 Carbines Wartime Production 7th Edition). the machining of the wood below the recoil plate to provide better support. Factors like durability, reliability, and functionality are all important things to consider when choosing your next hunting go-to. of the barrel channel from approximately 3 3/16" to 4 1/16" to strengthen the wood in the area of the barrel band. Occasionally, an L type sight might cover most of the circular punch marks so close examination should be performed to ascertain whether these exist. Some enterprising fakers have welded up very deep staking punch marks, ground off the excess and refinished the receiver. The Type IA barrel band is marked KV-SG which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 59). IP and S'G' mixed. due to a lack of original documentation. standard for all type V M2 pot belly stocks by all manufacturers. The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for statistical purposes. Such markings can be sanded off by someone wishing to remove such evidence so any sanded areas make the stock suspect. 217: M1 Carbine Barrel Band Type 3 (Bayonet lug)Used G.I. There are a variety of reasons things may have been changed or simply ignored. two Ordnance rebuild P's. The stock seems to be varnished. XA27, XA62, XD14). A full parts list with their markings is included in the photographs. Two of the most significant areas to observe are the barrel and rear sight base. Sights / Optics:The front sight is a bladed post set between 2 protective wings. of 0.3. American Black Walnut was the most common wood used. We would like to encourage you to share information you may have that will help reconstruct what was actually done versus planned. During the course of production of the Type III stock for the M1 Carbine several manufacturers began making changes Model: M1 Carbine Serial Number: 1767065 Year of Manufacture: 1942 to 1944. Data collected Thank you. Mechanics:The action functions correctly. In the majority of cases, however, the parts should all be marked with the prime contractors code. No specific manufacture dates are listed due to a number of reasons explained on pages 24 to 26 of Scott Duffs book, The M1 Carbine Owners Guide. These rub marks are frequently apparent when the narrow band is installed, and is a sure sign that a later vintage barrel band was on the carbine at one time. Here is my $50 Saginaw S'G' - IP Carbine. Photograph has been reversed to show the appearance of markings that would be produced by the fake stamps. service to the online gun buying experience that is unheard of. The bore shows an M.E. Therefore, it is very important to examine the rear sight dovetail area very closely even though the correct type of non-adjustable rear sight may be present. We get the FFL from your store others make you find it, copy it, and fax it. With World War 2 M1 sling. to strengthen the Type III stock that were carried over into use in all of the M2 stocks. Saginaw or Saginaw'. were parkerized, the tint and texture of these parts varied. My IP is in the first serial block--1776xxx. They now sell for $4.50 to $7.00 each. Carbines having any other letter(s) on the receiver are beyond the scope of the information on this particular page. your community AND if they have it in stock, you can pick your gun up Front sight marked with N. Military Crossed Cannons Cartouche on right mid stock face. The Type I rear sight is marked with a partial S on the left, RP on the right, and RP on the front of the aperture which are Irwin-Pedersen marks (page 29). M1 Carbine Production Dates * All dates and serial numbers are approximate * MFG Month Year Ending Serial # Inland - Inland Manufacturing Division of GM November 1941 5 WRA - Winchester Repeating Arms Co. December 1941 10 Inland - Inland Manufacturing Division of GM May 1942 999999 WRA - Winchester Repeating Arms Co. September 1942 1349999 The ebb and flow of mass production created parts surpluses and shortages for all the prime contractors, barrels included. I have some other shooters so this one has been a safe queen. U.S. It will add to your WWII collection. There was no requirement as to using the serial numbers in order. All original WWII carbine bolts are believed to have been blued. Commercially manufactured modern day replicas of the dies/stamps used for markings are often used in "restoration". Irwin-Pederson M1 Carbines are RARE. They are a specialty that How long ago? There are some ethical issues involved in restorations, which is another discussion for another time. We buy and sell collectible firearms and militaria ranging from the Civil War to Desert Storm, specializing in WW1 & WW2. Our Assessment:The M1 Carbine was developed and produced after WWII started. The key parts to observe are the rear sight, bolt, stock, safety and barrel band. Skip to the beginning of the images gallery, 73 Plank Ave Paoli, It has a barrel stamp of 10-43, but also has the stamp of Blue Sky/ Arlington, VA. Everything appears to be original and shows very little wear. This rareIrwin-PedersenM1 Carbine is in Very Good Plus condition. There is no erosion. The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for anonymous statistical purposes. Winchester made 828,059, followed by Underwood Elliott-Fisher at 545,616, While most major component parts such as receivers, barrels (with a few exceptions), trigger housings, etc. Saginaw took over production in Grand Rapids and marked the facilities M1 Carbines SG to differentiate them from the ones produced at the original Saginaw plant. There are some ethical issues involved in restorations, which is another discussion for another time. This product contains chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. community. Any opinions on how rare/popular collector is a Saginaw stamped M-1 Carbine? There is grease residue on the receiver. The best way to ensure an item is yours is to purchase it directly off the website. Saginaw SG guns were produced from the remnants of the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Grand Rapids. I've got one with (JJ) in a circle , on the flipper, on a Winchester. This change was not implemented in conjunction with the longer barrel channel The inside of the operating slide is marked IP which is a Irwin-Pedersen mark (page 65). Underwood had receivers in various stages of completion left over when their contract ended. The barrel is an Underwood barrel that was supplied to Saginaw SG. 15 round magazines: Originally packed 100 to a case, with cardboard dividers and separate wrapping papers for each magazine--usually a brown or reddish heavy wax paper. Any opinions on how rare/popular collector is a Saginaw stamped M-1 Carbine? Ths M1 Carbine has since been refinished. This website uses cookies for functionality, analytics and advertising purposes as described in our, Specific M1 Carbine Contractor Discussions. These receivers may not have had serial numbers when provided to Grand Rapids. s/n's intermixed w/IBM s/n's (also see Table E & F). Barrel Date: September, 1943, Action Type:Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. 3 3/16" (approx.) Saginaw M1 Carbine .30 Carbine Semi-Auto Rifle Blue Sky Import - C&R - 12500203. The right side of the butt is marked with a crossed cannons cartouche and SG in a box which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 124). fire carbines like the M2's. Most everything can be easily bought online these days. The varnish is a little thin around the sling cutout. Lighter colored wood such as birch was often stained darker before being finished. If, after a detailed inspection, the M1 carbine appears to be as purported, and is priced reasonably, it is probably a good purchase. DIV. What caught my eyes right at the start when I purchased the little rifle was the unusual rear sight. Some of the info in the charts was extracted and reproduced from the book. They are a little bit rare, and the price is usually way too high. Underwood supplied barrels for Saginaw SG (page 50). for use with a select fire mechanism. Guns.com is built to be simple easily organized products, useful descriptions from experts, and support to guide you to the right choice. When CMP had a bunch of M1 Carbine for sale that were from Spain or Italy I bought one and it is a Saginaw. Barrels were a critical component in the production lines. This M1 Carbine has been rebuilt and now uses a mix of Inland and USGI parts. PRICE LOWERED BY $500 WAS 5999.99, WARNING! The rear sight is a Type I dual flip up aperture. Our Assessment:ThisSaginaw SG M1 Carbine was built sometime between 1942 and 1944 from the remaining parts at the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Grand Rapids. .30 M1. and the top rear is marked IRWIN-PEDERSON / 1767065. With World War 2 M1 sling. Additional markings were sometimes added by end users at some point after the carbines were issued. Saginaw Carbines made in the Grand Rapids, Michigan factory are marked SG . Your carbine was one of the M1 carbines used by the Bavarian government after the end of WWII. I'll give you $150.00 for it so you can double your return , That's a beauty! Read about the Saginaw (S.G.) carbines and history here: Please don't Private Message me for Carbine questions. Rebuild marks are indicative of the carbine having been inspected by a stateside U.S. Grand Rapids, Michigan, Year of Manufacture:1942 to 1944. The high wood refers to the stock, not the hand guard. Get a heads up on all of our Sales, Promotions, and news updates (about 1 email per month). This M1 Carbine will stand out in any collection. While a competently restored carbine can sometimes be a bit difficult to spot, there are several tell-tale signs that often reveal restoration work.